dont agree, in the netherlands you first marry at city hall, complkete with ceremony, in most cases. and some choose to allso marry in church, the religous ones.
marriage is way older then christianity, its simply 2 people making it official they will be together. its bull to allow them partnership only. christians dont have the monopoly to give away.

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I agree with DT.

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Increase population
http://fayebelleland.myminicity.com/


Increase industry http://fayebelleland.myminicity.com/ind

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FM says it is a game..... I don't get it......

I HAVE SECURITY NOW!!!


Increase security http://fayebelleland.myminicity.com/sec

I agree with OKI.

I think that you Heterosexuals that are willing to pay for Queer Marriage and the associated loss of Tax Income and Increases in Group Health Insurance should be forced to pay my share.

What a Bunch of Ignoramii.

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Banned Before Bored

BULLSHIT! Have you ever read any of the documents or information on that action? I suspect you merely parrot the words of someone like "dr" Cameron.

Here's a link, Homosexuality and Mental Health While I'd suggest you read the entire article, if its too daunting, scroll down to the information pertaining to Dr Hooker.


You seem to have missed something basic in the discussion. You stated homosexuality is a mental illness. My rebuttal referenced the AMA and APA position and the removal of homosexuality as a mental illness from the DSM. Continuing in that vein, I acknowledged that while in and of itself, homosexuality isn't an illness; it can be the REASON a person needs counselling. The REASON being a problem coping with the antipathy or outright hatred exhibited and directed at a homosexual person. And, to support that position, I used a very vocal and nationally recognized group as opposed to speaking of "Bubba" who lives in down the road...

As to your personal opinion about the Westboro Hate Society... doesn't matter that you don't believe they are a 'church'. The baptists haven't disavowed them, there hasn't been a lawsuit to remove the "baptist" from their title.... surely if they were roman ***holicks saying that 'Mary' wasn't the 'mother' of god or were ordaining women as priests; that church would be doing whatever they could for an injunction.

"Gay people have done plenty of that to themselves by their sexual activities (and other self-destructive activities that heterosexuals do, such as drug and alcohol abuse)."

I will break your statement down for you, do try to keep up.

Harmful acts..................... Who does them?
sexual activities................"gay people"
drug abuse......................."gay people" "heterosexuals"
alcohol abuse...................."gay people" "heterosexuals"

Looks pretty plain to me that sexually heterosexuals DON'T do harmful sexual activities when your post is broken down. Do try to be intellectually honest!

Well, I still don't know if your sexual orientation is a "behavior" or not. I will presume you don't see it as a "behavior"

You have stated you haven't engaged in a same sex relationship because its 'icky' and destructive. You have applied your personal opinion to the relationship of another person. Is it POSSIBLE that a woman in a same-sex relationship would believe that sex with a man would be disgusting or 'icky'?

I personally hate liver. The smell of it cooking is enough to make me gag. As a child I was forced to eat it as part of a meal. Some I was able to choke down, enveloped in a large gob of mashed potatoes or bread... most I tried to tuck into a napkin to be disposed of later. As a last result, I would attempt to discretely drop it down a hot-air vent that was adjacent to my chair at the table. I don't advo***e the banning of liver sales. I won't tell you that you are a sick and twisted fuck for eating it. So, why can't you just decide that while ia same-sex relationship isn't for you, it may be a perfect fit for someone else?

As to the second part of your pontifi***ion... "destructive". It sounds like more of the religious reich's propaganda to galvanize hatred.

Yes, there are people who have attempted conversion therapy. Reparative therapy: estimates of success

This is the conclusion paragraph from the Religious Tolerance link...

From the available data, four studies reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.5 and 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study. Considering the anecdotal data which indi***es a large percentage of extremely depressed and suicidal clients emerging from conversion therapy, it would appear that this form of therapy is worthless. It my well result in the death by suicide of more gays and lesbians than it "converts" to a heterosexual orientation. Unfortunately, we cannot be certain of this. The quality of the studies is extremely poor.

Jack Drescher is a New York psychiatrist and chairperson of the American Psychiatric Association's committee on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues told a Washington Post reporter in 2005: "There are probably a small number of people with some flexibility in their sexual identity who can change. Out of the hundreds of gay men I've treated, I've had one." If we assume that his term "sexual identity" is a synonym for "sexual orientation," and that Dr. Drescher has treated 200 gay men, then he would seem to estimate that about 99.5% of gay men have a fixed sexual orientation, and that only about 0.5% can change their orientation.

This link ties your earlier supposition that GLBT folks "forced" the AMA and the APA to changer their stance. It also discusses the attempt of a 'dr' Nicolossi's attempt to improve the position of conversion therapy. It's dated, but the religious reich continues to venerate this buffoon. APA Statement

Again... these are the concluding statements from the following link. Let's be intellectually honest enough to read them!

Counseling Gay and Lesbian Clients in AllPsych Journal

Consider the following statements released by professional organizations regarding gay to straight conversion therapy. If it is attempted, please do so with open eyes and with a solid understanding of the likely consequences. (Retrieved from the King County government website, June 7, 2003)


"Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindi***ed, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
- American Academy of Pediatrics


"For nearly three decades, it has been known that homosexuality is not a mental illness. Medical and mental health professionals also now know that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be altered. Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help."
-American Psychological Association


"Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so."
- American Psychiatric Association

All that being said. If a person chooses to attempt conversion therapy, that's his/her RIGHT. I would say that the 'issue' comes from the vociferous ranting of the religious reich in attempting to gloss over its extremely high FAILURE rating. And of course the routine incidences of "gotcha" when the poster children of these groups (NARTH, Exodus, etc.) are found in same sex relationships, gay bars, cruising for 'hook-ups', etc.

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"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St-Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the civil rights movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

. . . Coretta Scott King

does that mean you think gays dont have to pay for hetero marriage?

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So, you are recanting on your earlier statement "Those of us who have fought for racial equality and justice are disgusted by the blatant misuse of terms like "equality" and "discrimination" in regards to BEHAVIOR."? Clearly, "us" is used to include you as a 'fighter for civil rights'. And the above statement appears to say that one can't be a "true civil rights advo***e" if you can't support equal rights for GLBT people.

All that being said, I'm sure that the widow would be just crushed to hear that you disapprove of her for acknowledging the GLBT people who walked with King because it was the right thing to do. (sarcasm switched off!)

Perhaps if the re-interpretation of this book of fables that you preach from were stopped, you wouldn't fear? Of course, it would be so nice to see all the rest of the books that were edited out for "context". Frankly, I don't see what gay christians find in this belief system. The hypocracy endemic within the cult is phenomenal!

And that is why I call "your side" the religious reich and will refer to your "loving brothers" such as Phelps, etc. as "kristians". Isn't it interesting how the Aryan Supremist groups all happen to have the christian god symbolism in their beliefs?






Maybe if he had a carry concealed weapon, he might still be around today. Just sayin'. [/quote]

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"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St-Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the civil rights movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

. . . Coretta Scott King

Come on oki.... samson can't answer that question because it would be tantamount to acknowledging a bias exists.

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"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St-Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the civil rights movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

. . . Coretta Scott King

Gays should have the same right to the tax shelter as hetrosexuals, however, marriage is a Religious thing. I dont know where Oki gets that I said it was a Christian thing. All religions have marriage. I dont think the Government should "marry" anybody. However, I dont think that the government should discriminate between two tax payers entering into a civil partnership. Call it a fucking limited liability corperation, if you want. When one person dies, the remaining partner in the LLC gets the others shit. Noone can say shit.

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I declare msgtdoug winner of this argument

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I'm famous in Vermont....